Overrated classic episodes

[oneknightsteed]

Hello everyone! I'm a newbie to this forum, so I hope you'll forgive my first post in regard to a rather worn subject. Having read the well presented and well researched debate between Mona and Timeless (May I call you Timeless?), I was inspired to review Man-Eater myself. I had never known there was an alternative view to the climax of this episode. Therefore, I preceded to watch this episode for the umpteenth time and actually made some notes for reference.(Oh, what obsession will drive one to. I never even took notes in school!) But I digress. I had believed that the mannequins were just another quirky set design, as we see in many Avengers episodes. Upon more in-depth observation, aside from Steeds opportunity to remark "Come autumn, I hope to see more of you." to a mannequin in the foyer, the one in the main lab/office of Sir Lyle Peterson is used to provide a clue. "You know Mr. Steed, people often regard plants like these wax figures. Passive. Inanimate." They are standing in front of a mannequin with a plant twining around it. "Yet, see how these plants climb. For all we know, they feel. Perhaps even think." So I start to think. The purpose of the mannequins is to parallel the plants overtaking humans...aaahhh! Ok. I'm not the brightest bulb, but I am energy efficient!
Now then, this whole was it Emma or not? Did Steed do the evil deed? (Not that evil deed!) At the begining of the story, where Steed offers Emma the rose, she says'"I sense a bribe." and "What nasty situation have you got in store for us this time?" Then she points out his early warning system, "A look in the eye. Roses...". She is acknowledging his manipulative and unctuous nature. (Important disclaimer- I love and adore Steed/Macnee! And I have always been in the "Yes they did it!' ranks.) As much as I believe Steed cared very much for Emma, his character was one of a very seasoned spy. He could not afford sentimentality to inerfere with the mission. The situation called for quick thinking and fast action. Steed had expeditiously summed up the best course to take and, in the interest of the survival of mankind, he had no other options. She was a warm body. The plant ate humans. A teaspoon of the herbicide would kill a large oak tree, therefore a pouring even a partial jug of herbicide on her warm body would probaly kill the plant when it came into contact. He was hedging his bet, but he trusted a lifetime of his instinct for survival to save them all.
Just to throw in that personal touch, I have 13 years of Security/Law enforcement background. Though I do not profess to have any expertise in the Intelligence field (No comments, plese! ), I do have experience in dealing with "..nerves jangling in the wind."

Sue
"I laugh at danger and throw ice cubes down the vest of fear!"[/quote][/code]

[Frankymole]

Welcome to the forum, Sue. (Plant) food for thought there!

I've seen this story several times but never once felt it was a mannequin being "sacrificed". Perhaps that's due to the fight scene having a man playing Emma Peel - the body shape is so wrong, that when the Emma/mannequin/body is dragged off by the plant I don't know whether we're meant to see that anything is amiss, or not!

Your description of Steed as a hardened agent who has to make tough, rapid decisions sometimes fits in with what his foes in the series say about him (and indeed the Ministry training academy if we're to believe Tara - she may just be buttering him up with a little flattery, though).

[Timeless A-Peel]

Hello everyone! I'm a newbie to this forum, so I hope you'll forgive my first post in regard to a rather worn subject. Having read the well presented and well researched debate between Mona and Timeless (May I call you Timeless?), I was inspired to review Man-Eater myself. I had never known there was an alternative view to the climax of this episode. Therefore, I preceded to watch this episode for the umpteenth time and actually made some notes for reference.(Oh, what obsession will drive one to. I never even took notes in school!) But I digress. I had believed that the mannequins were just another quirky set design, as we see in many Avengers episodes. Upon more in-depth observation, aside from Steeds opportunity to remark "Come autumn, I hope to see more of you." to a mannequin in the foyer, the one in the main lab/office of Sir Lyle Peterson is used to provide a clue. "You know Mr. Steed, people often regard plants like these wax figures. Passive. Inanimate." They are standing in front of a mannequin with a plant twining around it. "Yet, see how these plants climb. For all we know, they feel. Perhaps even think." So I start to think. The purpose of the mannequins is to parallel the plants overtaking humans...aaahhh! Ok. I'm not the brightest bulb, but I am energy efficient!
Now then, this whole was it Emma or not? Did Steed do the evil deed? (Not that evil deed!) At the begining of the story, where Steed offers Emma the rose, she says'"I sense a bribe." and "What nasty situation have you got in store for us this time?" Then she points out his early warning system, "A look in the eye. Roses...". She is acknowledging his manipulative and unctuous nature. (Important disclaimer- I love and adore Steed/Macnee! And I have always been in the "Yes they did it!' ranks.) As much as I believe Steed cared very much for Emma, his character was one of a very seasoned spy. He could not afford sentimentality to inerfere with the mission. The situation called for quick thinking and fast action. Steed had expeditiously summed up the best course to take and, in the interest of the survival of mankind, he had no other options. She was a warm body. The plant ate humans. A teaspoon of the herbicide would kill a large oak tree, therefore a pouring even a partial jug of herbicide on her warm body would probaly kill the plant when it came into contact. He was hedging his bet, but he trusted a lifetime of his instinct for survival to save them all.
Just to throw in that personal touch, I have 13 years of Security/Law enforcement background. Though I do not profess to have any expertise in the Intelligence field (No comments, plese! ), I do have experience in dealing with "..nerves jangling in the wind."

Sue
"I laugh at danger and throw ice cubes down the vest of fear!"

[/code][/quote]

Hi, Sue! Welcome to the forum! (And yes, of course you may call me Timeless. Everyone else does ). You deserve a prize for reading through all those long posts.

You make some good points. There's a lot of evidence for looking at it both ways. As Franky has pointed out, the double used for Emma's fight makes it hard to know whether we're meant to notice that if it isn't Emma or not. The idea of Steed sacrificing Emma is unpalatable, and makes one want to go for the mannequin argument, but when humanity is at stake, Steed has an obligation to get the job done, and that means doing things that even he isn't happy about. All in all, I think the whole sequence was confusingly cut together. I tend to suspect, having looked at the screenshots, that we were supposed to think that Steed had sacrificed Emma right up until we see her lying there with her coat off, at which point I think they meant for us to realise he'd used the mannequin, but if that's true it's so badly staged it's no surprise there's confusion. Again, I have to say the timing is wrong--Steed would have to be off-screen for longer than he is to execute his plan.

[Mona]

I tend to suspect, having looked at the screenshots, that we were supposed to think that Steed had sacrificed Emma right up until we see her lying there with her coat off, at which point I think they meant for us to realise he'd used the mannequin, but if that's true it's so badly staged it's no surprise there's confusion.

I absolutely believe that definitely was supposed to be the case. Unfortunately, the only terrible editing in the whole series had to occur right there!

Mona

[oneknightsteed]

I tend to suspect, having looked at the screenshots, that we were supposed to think that Steed had sacrificed Emma right up until we see her lying there with her coat off, at which point I think they meant for us to realise he'd used the mannequin, but if that's true it's so badly staged it's no surprise there's confusion.

I absolutely believe that definitely was supposed to be the case. Unfortunately, the only terrible editing in the whole series had to occur right there!

Mona[/quote

I know I will probably be burned at the stake for pursuing this, but when you look at 'Two's A Crowd', you see that Steed is totally capable of putting Emma in harms way, as well as showing little regard for her feelings! He let her be taken hostage and allowed her to believe he'd been killed! These episodes were still early days in their partnership/relationship. Steed was still a bit of a scamp. Therefore I say it was Emma not a mannequin. But I truely respect your opinion and can see there is cause for confusion.
Of course this is my most humble opinion. Don't hurt me!

[Mona]

I know I will probably be burned at the stake for pursuing this, but when you look at 'Two's A Crowd', you see that Steed is totally capable of putting Emma in harms way, as well as showing little regard for her feelings! He let her be taken hostage and allowed her to believe he'd been killed! These episodes were still early days in their partnership/relationship. Steed was still a bit of a scamp. Therefore I say it was Emma not a mannequin. But I truely respect your opinion and can see there is cause for confusion.
Of course this is my most humble opinion. Don't hurt me!

I'm not going to burn you at the stake, OneKnight, but I do find it odd that you only have one episode to judge Steed by negatively in the Emma series, when there are a LOT of episodes, a huge amount, whereby he is anxious to save her when she is captured, at risk, etc, and indeed does do so. We start in that mode in the "Town of No Return" and continue on throughout the black and white and color series. So, the proof of him caring for her entirely outweighs his one negative action in "Two's a Crowd".

I have to say it does really incredibly amaze me that people think Steed would pour the toxic material on Emma--which, if he DID, and the plant died, how is she waking up all healthy and fine? I understand he had some edges to his personality, but I'll go to my grave believing that if it was absolutely necessary for a human to be killed to stop the outer space plant, he'd have poured the herbicide on himself. But, what we see most of all in ALL the Avenger series, from Hot Snow to Emily, is how quick minded, and how cunning Steed was--his mind would instantly see the mannequin, use Emma's jacket as "scent" and then pour on the herbicide. THAT is the action of our Steed most of all.

I also stand by my statement that TV shows do not uselessly add such things as mannequins into the set pieces. The idea that they do, for no reason, is something I must seriously disagree with.

I actually sent Patrick Macnee a letter explaining this conundrum to him, asking him to simply return a postage paid enclosed postcard, marking one of two options--Mannequin or Emma--but unfortunately at this time in his life, Pat is really not answering fan email anymore. That's too bad.

I do cherish the one letter I received from him back in, gosh, 1992 or so. You can't hardly read it as his handwriting is SO bad, but of course, he had to discuss Diana Rigg, (favorite topic of his all the time in real life) and include one of his "bits"--a positive review of a play she was just in.

HEY! Anyone know the fan email address of Diana Rigg? We can ask HER! Or is the writer of that show still alive; any know and know of his address? I'm happy to write him, too!

[Sam]

Man-Eater was written by Philip Levene who penned the majority of the sci-fi type stories. The IMDb does not say he's passed on, but he has no writing credits after 1975 so I'm not sure.

[Dandy Forsdyke]

Hello Mona

I'm still that you send Patrick a letter with boxes for two options - 'Diana' and 'Mannequin'.

Anyway, I found this address - I don't know if she's still with the same management company.

Dame Diana Rigg
London Management
2-4 Noel Street
London W1V 3RB
United Kingdom

[kim]

Actually these questions might be better answered by Rodney and his dad. So Rodney what do you and your dad think? Would Steed, as an absolute last resort, sacrifice a friend or colleague to save the world?

[oneknightsteed]

I'm not going to burn you at the stake, OneKnight, but I do find it odd that you only have one episode to judge Steed by negatively in the Emma series, when there are a LOT of episodes, a huge amount, whereby he is anxious to save her when she is captured, at risk, etc, and indeed does do so. We start in that mode in the "Town of No Return" and continue on throughout the black and white and color series. So, the proof of him caring for her entirely outweighs his one negative action in "Two's a Crowd".

I have to say it does really incredibly amaze me that people think Steed would pour the toxic material on Emma--which, if he DID, and the plant died, how is she waking up all healthy and fine? I understand he had some edges to his personality, but I'll go to my grave believing that if it was absolutely necessary for a human to be killed to stop the outer space plant, he'd have poured the herbicide on himself. But, what we see most of all in ALL the Avenger series, from Hot Snow to Emily, is how quick minded, and how cunning Steed was--his mind would instantly see the mannequin, use Emma's jacket as "scent" and then pour on the herbicide. THAT is the action of our Steed most of all.

I also stand by my statement that TV shows do not uselessly add such things as mannequins into the set pieces. The idea that they do, for no reason, is something I must seriously disagree with.

I actually sent Patrick Macnee a letter explaining this conundrum to him, asking him to simply return a postage paid enclosed postcard, marking one of two options--Mannequin or Emma--but unfortunately at this time in his life, Pat is really not answering fan email anymore. That's too bad.

Actually, It's two episodes I'm using -'Two's A Crowd' along with 'Maneater' to judge Steed by. I prefer not to think of it as negative as I dearly love Steed and he is my favorite character of all time! No, I'd rather see it as merely pointing out that his character was developing beyond the Cathy Gale series. He was, in the early Emma Peel episodes, still capable of 'the end justifing the means' mentality. It's clear that he was quickly coming away from that behavior and developed into the consummate gentleman.
I did offer a possible reason for the mannequins in my earlier post. I certainly can see your reasoning, though. You make so many excellent points!
I too love the fact you would send Pat a postcard seeking resolution of this conundrum. I do hope you receive an answer from someone and I would be pleased if you are proven right.
Mona, I admire and respect you! You are the loyalist of fans! You're also my hero for actually crossing the threshold of the man we both love dearly!

"Believe nothing,
no matter where you read it
or who has said it,
not even if I have said it,
unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense"
-Buddha