Did They or Didn't They?

[Dandy Forsdyke]

I thought I'd drag the discussion over here if that's okay.

My understanding is we don't know and we are not supposed to know for sure. The whole 'Did they/didn't they' or 'Will they/won't they' was intentional and was instrumental to keep viewers guessing. There is no hidden clues in words or pictures to form any conclusion. There was no memo from the producers to the writers to confirm or deny and, I believe, every cast member and every writer will have a slightly different opinion. As do we.

Having said that, my-twopenneth is Cathy fancied Steed but, once she knew she could not change him and he would always be a bounder, she gives in and walks away. They never slept together - had they, it would have been the end. She was a modern woman, but it was still 1962/3/4.

Steed and Emma was as close as they could be without being married. Again all sexual tension would be lost if they every did the deed and the ending in TFMK wouldn't have been so poignant.

Steed and Tara - no. There's seems to be heavy code in Bizarre in the tag (phallus rocket, "there's no hurry ... Is there ... ?") but no. Urm, maybe ...

My issue here is simply that he was her mentor and it would be bad form. The old Steed from the Dr. Keel-C. Gale days may well have, but Steed was a fully grown up person by 1969. However that ending is almost semaphore in the clues it's giving us - rocket = phallus, Steed's 'look', "no hurry", Mother's concern. She had matured by then. Was he still the mentor? Or were they now equal partners?

[Frankymole]

They were equal partners by then.

As to the Emma/Steed thing, I'm now in the SEDDI camp. Brian Clemens's view is good enough for me - that they had previously been lovers (presumably during all that "worked together years before" stuff in the Joker, and then Emma married, but now her hubby's gone there's a chance of reigniting things... maybe.

More interesting is Purdey... neither Steed nor her would kiss and tell, so whether at some point in the series they got together, well, it's interesting to look out for clues!

[Dandy Forsdyke]

Interesting. There are no 'clues' of course. One writer may have a very different opinion to another and might plant something another writer ignores or conflicts with entirely. Did the writers (BC apart) even watch each others episodes? A question for Roger Marshall there ...

If these episodes were created to be released one day in a box set to watch over and over and scrutinised ... but they weren't. It was a mild diversion one hour a week to be consumed and forgotten.

Brian Clemens is wise enough to say "in my view" and "it's my opinion" and that's fine by me in that there might be another opinion equally as valid.

I just think sexual tension is gone if they 'did it'.

[Timeless A-Peel]

It's funny because, when I started watching the show back in 1998, it never even crossed my mind that Steed and Emma were more than very good, very fond, very close friends, which is all I ever saw them as. The whole SEDDI concept didn't come up until I went online and there was all this talk along the lines of "Well, of course they were lovers" floating around. I was shocked. Shocked, I tell you! It seemed inherently wrong to even consider it. I don't know if this was because I was so young at the time and so wasn't looking for these things, or just because that's not my dominant mindset. On average, I actually don't find myself digging for/wanting romances between characters that aren't laid out--the Sam Tyler/Annie Cartwright and Laura Holt/Remington Steeles of the world. I'm quite keen on very dear friendships, I suppose, and sex can ruin those. Half the reason I love The Champions is that there's absolutely no sexual tension between the leads. I find that extremely refreshing. So I think I'm not actively looking for evidence of it as much as some--I tend to err on the side of "No, they didn't," I think.

On the flip side, that doesn't mean I'm opposed to it, either. I can see the case for Steed and Emma. I think there's no doubt Steed clicked with her better than anyone, that they were very fond of each other, and that there's every indication of it being a love match. I can see them being lovers at some point, whether before or during the series, and, equally, I can see them never doing the deed, and going with Diana Rigg's take on it. I'm a bit laissez-faire about it, to be honest. If they did, that's fine, and if they didn't, I'm good with that, too. Neither side seems to have a lock on it, and I don't have one mindset when I watch the episodes. So yeah, open-ended that one.

Steed and Cathy is the complete opposite. I really need to rewatch season 3, because they weren't as snipey as I remembered when I saw season 2, but there's a lot of feeling around to capture her character early on. But for me the chances are nil. Nothing happened. They grate on each other too much. There's that scene where they argue in the caravan in Conspiracy of Silence where things get so heated Steed actually looks like he wants to slap her. It's one of those conflict-habituated relationships. Steed knows how to push the right buttons to get Cathy to do what he wants, and Cathy does her work either out of a sense of duty (at times she seems to be recruited independently of Steed), and partly because her nature is to give people a lot of chances. But his basic personality rubs her the wrong way. She has fun with him at times, but I always get this sense that she's waiting for the other shoe to drop, and eventually she walks. So a "no" on that front.

I have to be honest and say that my interest in Steed and Tara's relationship has always been so low that I've never even bothered to work out whether they were doing anything or not. Tara as a character always works better for me on her own than with Steed--the writers tend to do her disservice when they put them together, at least in the first half of her season (there's probably a reason All Done with Mirrors is considered one of her shining moments). There's no question Tara's all for it. Whether or not Steed decided to take her up on it I honestly don't know, but the end of Bizarre is probably the Avengers at its least ambiguous. So I'll say nothing happened until the rocket.

Purdey and Steed I've discussed at length, but essentially, I always feel as though Steed's almost a bit weary of the dance by that point. His love life isn't exactly struggling, and I think he's quite happy to have Purdey and Gambit as close, good friends who won't stab him in the back or die on him. Purdey's interested, and he's fond of her, but I never get the sense that he takes her up on it. If he did, it didn't last long. But I tend to think not.

Purdey and Gambit is all about dancing around the problem until Purdey gets her head around it. Probably the pair that were most unambiguously not doing it during the series (other than Cathy and Steed, which are more or less their forerunners), I'd like to think they eventually got their mess together sometime post-series. Otherwise all those running jokes and flirting would have gotten a bit sad. Purdey needs a good shock to quit taking Gambit for granted--she had it in Faces when she thought he was dead, but she didn't have long enough to really think on all the missed opportunities. It is actually possible to build a plausible case that they were an item during the show if you look at it right, and I have read a lot of comments to that end, but I always think that their moment was just around the corner.

[oneknightsteed]

I thought I'd drag the discussion over here if that's okay.

My understanding is we don't know and we are not supposed to know for sure. The whole 'Did they/didn't they' or 'Will they/won't they' was intentional and was instrumental to keep viewers guessing. There is no hidden clues in words or pictures to form any conclusion. There was no memo from the producers to the writers to confirm or deny and, I believe, every cast member and every writer will have a slightly different opinion. As do we.

Having said that, my-twopenneth is Cathy fancied Steed but, once she knew she could not change him and he would always be a bounder, she gives in and walks away. They never slept together - had they, it would have been the end. She was a modern woman, but it was still 1962/3/4.

Steed and Emma was as close as they could be without being married. Again all sexual tension would be lost if they every did the deed and the ending in TFMK wouldn't have been so poignant.

Steed and Tara - no. There's seems to be heavy code in Bizarre in the tag (phallus rocket, "there's no hurry ... Is there ... ?") but no. Urm, maybe ...

My issue here is simply that he was her mentor and it would be bad form. The old Steed from the Dr. Keel-C. Gale days may well have, but Steed was a fully grown up person by 1969. However that ending is almost semaphore in the clues it's giving us - rocket = phallus, Steed's 'look', "no hurry", Mother's concern. She had matured by then. Was he still the mentor? Or were they now equal partners?

Oh boy! Here we go! The devils in the details.
With Steed and Cathy, it would be an assumption that it happened before she started working with him. There are moments in various episodes that indicate a familiarity beyond friendship. The dinner he treats her to at the Chinese restaurant in"The Golden Fleece'; she's seems to be under his spell, as if she's reconnecting with a side of Steed she once enjoyed. Very untypical of Cathy! And, as Mona has mentioned in another post, in "the Man With Two Shadows" Steed whispers to her how she would be able to tell him from a doppleganger. Something, one imagines that is intimate between the two. Yes, I'm reaching a bit on this pairing, but it's all for fun!

I'll jump to Steed and Tara. Yes they did. You see the honorable side of Steed, Dandy. I cannot fault that! But, he's only human! Emma left him and broke his heart. Tara was young, buxom, not unattractive (Sorry guys, she's not one of my favorites) and she was enamored with Steed. Sure he put her off for awhile, but she wore him down. He was vulnerable and she was willing! The tag for 'Invasion Of The Earthmen' (correct me if I have the wrong episode) has Steed teaching Tara a shoulder throw. When they sit down on the couch, she asks him what they will do now. Steed looks her over, quite lasciviously, tosses the book to the floor and in a rather seductive voice says, "Practice." Only one way to discern that! Nuff said! Let's move on.

Now, the piece de resistance! Steed and Emma! Where do I begin? The subtext is everywhere! The intimate looks. The compromising positions. The suggestive remarks. Every episode had something to point, WITH BIG FLASHING ARROWS, to an intimacy of great depth! THEY DID IT! THEY DID IT! THEY DID IT!
'Honey For The Prince' - The opening scene as they cross over the bridge, playfully interacting as lovers would do.
-The scene where the Prince offers Steed one of his wives, but at the sound of Emma calling 'Steeed!" he turns to follow her with a look on his face that shows exactly who his choice is!
-The scene where Emma rubs the lamp, with a very mischievous look, to open the trap in the floor and drop down to Steed.
'The Town Of No Return' - Steed returns to his room, after failing as "pussy footed pussy", to a waiting Emma. That moment, face to face by the door , provides a very intimate look between them. "Isn't it tme you were in bed?" Indeed!
'Epic' - The tag when Emma suggests the film 'Nights Of Abandon' and gives the description "...unbridled passions...". Steed replies, "Unbridled passions. Mmmm...Why don't we spend the night at home?"
'Deaths Door' - Emma, "You know my wave-length."
Steed, "I do indeed!"
'What The Butler Saw' - Steeds anxiety comes through as he keeps walking in while Group Captain Miles is trying to seduce Emma. Then he panics a bit trying to hear whats going on. When Miles leaves, Steed cozies up to Emma by the fireplace, looking relieved and happy.
'The House That Jack Built' - The touching scene where Emma finds Steed in the hallway with spear in hand.
Etc., etc., etc.
I don't believe that sexual tension is lost in any way knowing they have done it. For me it just adds fuel to the fire!
I do respect your opinion Dandy! And yes, I'm sure everyone involved in the creation of the series has a differing view. I disagree on there being no hidden clues in the words or pictures to form a conclusion. I trust I've given some examples here.

Sue

[Cariheart]

As to the Emma/Steed thing, I'm now in the SEDDI camp. Brian Clemens's view is good enough for me - that they had previously been lovers (presumably during all that "worked together years before" stuff in the Joker, and then Emma married, but now her hubby's gone there's a chance of reigniting things... maybe.

I'm in total belief of this as well, more so than any other theory and with any other partner. It makes the most sense to me and I can actually see it in Steed and Emma's demeanor when interacting with each other. There had to have been some intimacy at the very least in their past.

[Mrs. Peel]

here is my opinion (I hope you can read it - it's difficult for me to express it in english, but I think you know what I mean)

Steed and Cathy:
Yes, although Cathy seems sometimes cold. In my opinion the kissing scene was "the beginning". It seems that Cathy really enjoy the kiss. And Steed - well, of course he wanted sex with Cathy!! But I think it's Cathy who is the leading person in this relationship.

Steed and Emma:
Of course, all the innuendos !!! (already mentioned in this post) I'm copletely convinced that they have sex. But in I very funny way and of course a little bit extraordinary you know what I mean

Steed and Tara
also yes, but in a romantic way, Tara loves Steed, she adores him. So a very romantic relationship...

Steed and Purdey
for me just good friends

[Mona]

Gotta agree absolutely with OneNightSteed, and her examples are good.

I think it's apparent that Cathy and Steed at least once had sex--or the dialogue in "Man with Two Shadows" tag (and their laughter) would be meaningless. As I said, I think they were lovers, probably very briefly, as Cathy realized he was not going to be monogamous or specifically attached to her, and she requires a committed relationship, so she cut off the sex and kept the friendship.

As for Steed and Emma--of course they were lovers. They were young, in great shape, saving Britain, the world, loads of adrenaline and the scripts were bountiful with obvious references. Let alone they are dressing in the hearse in "Murder Market". Let alone 100 other examples. It amazes me that some people think two healthy partners, who hang out together during investigations and for fun, who are in love no doubt with each other, would not of course dive into bed. Of course they would and the show had endless clues outside of them being shown specifically in bed. That would have been crass, and The Avengers was never crass.

As for Steed and Tara--yeah, definitely. OKS's description of the tag in "Earthmen" left out the most important undeniable clue: Tara is in her bathrobe, with her hair in a towel, showing she either already spent the night, or for some reason, came to Steed's early in the morning, just to shower.....

As for Steed and Purdey--the short version: Yes.

Mona

[oneknightsteed]

Gotta agree absolutely with OneNightSteed, and her examples are good.

I think it's apparent that Cathy and Steed at least once had sex--or the dialogue in "Man with Two Shadows" tag (and their laughter) would be meaningless. As I said, I think they were lovers, probably very briefly, as Cathy realized he was not going to be monogamous or specifically attached to her, and she requires a committed relationship, so she cut off the sex and kept the friendship.

As for Steed and Emma--of course they were lovers. They were young, in great shape, saving Britain, the world, loads of adrenaline and the scripts were bountiful with obvious references. Let alone they are dressing in the hearse in "Murder Market". Let alone 100 other examples. It amazes me that some people think two healthy partners, who hang out together during investigations and for fun, who are in love no doubt with each other, would not of course dive into bed. Of course they would and the show had endless clues outside of them being shown specifically in bed. That would have been crass, and The Avengers was never crass.

As for Steed and Tara--yeah, definitely. OKS's description of the tag in "Earthmen" left out the most important undeniable clue: Tara is in her bathrobe, with her hair in a towel, showing she either already spent the night, or for some reason, came to Steed's early in the morning, just to shower.....

As for Steed and Purdey--the short version: Yes.

Mona

Mona you are Golden!

Thanks for the backing and accolades to you for your "healthy partners" reasoning!

I did forget Tara's rather conspicuous appearance. The proverbial "nail-in-the-coffin"!

Oh yes! Steed & Purdey most definitely did it!

[Mona]

It amazes me that some people think two healthy partners, who hang out together during investigations and for fun, who are in love no doubt with each other, would not of course dive into bed.

Hey, all,

My sincere apologies if the above came out too curt! It's all just my point of view, which is quite meaningless all around in life. I rush to write these before zipping off to work or bed, etc., and sometimes I don't review what I wrote to ensure it's fully polite and nice! I did not mean to insult others who have different ways of seeing the show. My "amazement" is more about the vast diversity of opinions regarding the show.

But, I'm glad at least one other, the astute and lucid OKS, agrees with me!