Did They or Didn't They?

[Dandy Forsdyke]

A quick response from yours truly: "None of our business!"

The fact that things were ambiguous between the leads is what gave the show such appeal. If it had been an American show, they would have been a married couple, hopping in and out of bed in various stages of undress, with nothing left to the imagination. Boring.

Certainly married (with children!) Frasier was ruined when the original concept of the Niles/Daphne relationship was altered.

[Allard]

A quick response from yours truly: "None of our business!"

The fact that things were ambiguous between the leads is what gave the show such appeal. If it had been an American show, they would have been a married couple, hopping in and out of bed in various stages of undress, with nothing left to the imagination. Boring.

Certainly married (with children!) Frasier was ruined when the original concept of the Niles/Daphne relationship was altered.

I don't agree. Frasier indeed had it's best season before and up to Niles and Daphne getting together, and the worst season direct after them getting together. But the last season had good episodes and the lesser quality was not down to the Niles and Daphne relationship. It was worked very well in many episodes.

[Dandy Forsdyke]

A quick response from yours truly: "None of our business!"

The fact that things were ambiguous between the leads is what gave the show such appeal. If it had been an American show, they would have been a married couple, hopping in and out of bed in various stages of undress, with nothing left to the imagination. Boring.

Certainly married (with children!) Frasier was ruined when the original concept of the Niles/Daphne relationship was altered.

I don't agree. Frasier indeed had it's best season before and up to Niles and Daphne getting together, and the worst season direct after them getting together. But the last season had good episodes and the lesser quality was not down to the Niles and Daphne relationship. It was worked very well in many episodes.

Well, it ruined it for me. Yes, the quality went up in the last season - possibly more because they knew the series was ending and so they pulled up all the stops to make sure it went out on a high, but the 'will they, won't they' or in this case 'will she ever find out?' was ruined. And that pattern is repeated in a lot of shows.

[oneknightsteed]

A quick response from yours truly: "None of our business!"

The fact that things were ambiguous between the leads is what gave the show such appeal. If it had been an American show, they would have been a married couple, hopping in and out of bed in various stages of undress, with nothing left to the imagination. Boring.

Now that is the sound of one hand clapping!

My dear fellow Avengers fan, if what goes on between the lead characters of the show is 'none of our business", why do the writers even bother to develop their rapport. Or for that matter, why give them any personality at all. The basis of any successful show is the appeal of those characters! The actors and writers created the relationship between, in this case, Steed and Mrs. Peel to be provocative. We are drawn into their world and live vicariously through them. In other words, we care about them! Therefore, we make it our business to know what goes on with and between them. That is what brought us back each week!

Yes, we vary in our interpretation of what the depth of their relationship was, but to discount any interest at all discredits the wonderful interaction that Patrick and Diana developed on screen as Steed and Mrs. Peel!

As for American television, I would agree their are programs that make sex the focal point to the detriment of interesting characters. But this is not exclusive to the US. And, when you have two strong leads with excellent chemistry and charisma, the occasional "hopping into bed" can often enhance thier relationship!

A votre sante!

Sue

[MRotten]

Certainly married (with children!) Frasier was ruined when the original concept of the Niles/Daphne relationship was altered.

I don't agree. Frasier indeed had it's best season before and up to Niles and Daphne getting together, and the worst season direct after them getting together. But the last season had good episodes and the lesser quality was not down to the Niles and Daphne relationship. It was worked very well in many episodes.

Well, it ruined it for me. Yes, the quality went up in the last season - possibly more because they knew the series was ending and so they pulled up all the stops to make sure it went out on a high, but the 'will they, won't they' or in this case 'will she ever find out?' was ruined. And that pattern is repeated in a lot of shows.

Same goes for the US spy spoof "Get Smart". The two leads finally got married towards the end of the run of the series. It totally spoiled the show. Why couldn't they have left well enough alone?

[MRotten]

A quick response from yours truly: "None of our business!"

The fact that things were ambiguous between the leads is what gave the show such appeal. If it had been an American show, they would have been a married couple, hopping in and out of bed in various stages of undress, with nothing left to the imagination. Boring.

Now that is the sound of one hand clapping!

My dear fellow Avengers fan, if what goes on between the lead characters of the show is 'none of our business", why do the writers even bother to develop their rapport. Or for that matter, why give them any personality at all. The basis of any successful show is the appeal of those characters! The actors and writers created the relationship between, in this case, Steed and Mrs. Peel to be provocative. We are drawn into their world and live vicariously through them. In other words, we care about them! Therefore, we make it our business to know what goes on with and between them. That is what brought us back each week!

Yes, we vary in our interpretation of what the depth of their relationship was, but to discount any interest at all discredits the wonderful interaction that Patrick and Diana developed on screen as Steed and Mrs. Peel!

As for American television, I would agree their are programs that make sex the focal point to the detriment of interesting characters. But this is not exclusive to the US. And, when you have two strong leads with excellent chemistry and charisma, the occasional "hopping into bed" can often enhance thier relationship!

A votre sante!

Sue

Yes, and if The Avengers had followed said path, it would have been just another series without the spark of uniqueness that it had. Like Honor Blackman said, if the two of them did get together, it would have been like any other show. There are millions of relationships like that. The point being that The Avengers isn't like any other show, and that's precisely why we are discussing it decades later. There are some things better left unsaid, and some things better left unseen.

As for it being our business or not, I think there is enough prying into our lives, and enough of us prying into others' lives, fictional or otherwise.

[Dandy Forsdyke]

Didn't the two leads 'do it' in Moonlighting? We should make a list!

[MRotten]

Didn't the two leads 'do it' in Moonlighting? We should make a list!

There's a perfect example of a show that started off well but got ruined when the leads got too cozy.

[Mona]

Hello, MRotten,

I understand your belief that when fictional characters have sex on TV, it ruins a show for you, and you feel it ruins the show.

Obviously, this is not the case for everyone--Niles and Daphne getting together was About Time for me, after nearly 7 years of endless dancing about. Their relationship being together was sweet and touching, at times problematic, and merged perfectly into the show. After all, Frasier was having sex with partners all the time--did that ruin the show? If not, why would it be okay for Frasier to have sex in his relationships, but not Niles and Daphne?

I'm not sure why sex has to be hidden among consensual, energetic, healthy, mutual adults in "The Avengers" and even the thought of Steed and Emma having sex creates such havoc among some. As OneKnightSteed so eloquently wrote, the show wanted us to care about these characters and made them much more than two dimensional cut out boards. They had pasts, complex personalities, loved life and risked death both for the adventure and for the safety of their country and world.

They loved good food, good drink, good cars, good clothes. They went to balls and parties, they played polo and cricket, wrote scientific articles, went to shows, on picnics, to dinner. I think believing they lived life fully but kept sex out of it is missing some depth--Steed is the antithesis of celibacy and one doubts Emma, a very young, active and healthy widow, would choose to embrace a nunnery.

Believing that healthy, mutual sex was included in their relationship, and seeing some incredibly obvious clues to that regard, does not ruin the Avengers at all for me. Why would it? It, if anything, seems incredibly common sense SEDDI would exist given the times, the characters, and the writing of the show. It's certain if I was Emma I would have sex with Steed, so maybe some of our own desires are displaced onto the characters, as well as seeing the (at times blatant) innuendo and actions the writers so frequently had them conversing, and doing.

It would actually ruin the show for me IF they HADN'T had sex. Then the characters would appear to me to be very superficially drawn, burdened with sexual issues or a complete lack of libido which seems so antagonistic to their otherwise encompassing love of life.

Mona

[oneknightsteed]

A quick response from yours truly: "None of our business!"

The fact that things were ambiguous between the leads is what gave the show such appeal. If it had been an American show, they would have been a married couple, hopping in and out of bed in various stages of undress, with nothing left to the imagination. Boring.

Now that is the sound of one hand clapping!

My dear fellow Avengers fan, if what goes on between the lead characters of the show is 'none of our business", why do the writers even bother to develop their rapport. Or for that matter, why give them any personality at all. The basis of any successful show is the appeal of those characters! The actors and writers created the relationship between, in this case, Steed and Mrs. Peel to be provocative. We are drawn into their world and live vicariously through them. In other words, we care about them! Therefore, we make it our business to know what goes on with and between them. That is what brought us back each week!

Yes, we vary in our interpretation of what the depth of their relationship was, but to discount any interest at all discredits the wonderful interaction that Patrick and Diana developed on screen as Steed and Mrs. Peel!

As for American television, I would agree their are programs that make sex the focal point to the detriment of interesting characters. But this is not exclusive to the US. And, when you have two strong leads with excellent chemistry and charisma, the occasional "hopping into bed" can often enhance thier relationship!

A votre sante!

Sue

Yes, and if The Avengers had followed said path, it would have been just another series without the spark of uniqueness that it had. Like Honor Blackman said, if the two of them did get together, it would have been like any other show. There are millions of relationships like that. The point being that The Avengers isn't like any other show, and that's precisely why we are discussing it decades later. There are some things better left unsaid, and some things better left unseen.

As for it being our business or not, I think there is enough prying into our lives, and enough of us prying into others' lives, fictional or otherwise.

I agree whole heartily that there is far too much "prying into our lives" going on these days. To that I will say, what others do is not our business. However, a scripted television programs very premise is to allow us to observe, or "pry into" if you prefer, the lives of the characters. By doing so, I believe most people take a strong interest into the relationship and fate of these characters.

The delightful chemistry between Steed and Mrs. Peel helped the 'Avengers' rise above the average spy/sic-fi thriller. A large part of that chemistry was the innuendos that went on between them. It sparked our interest and left, at least some of us, curious as to what was going on. We came back because we enjoyed watching their interaction as well as what diabolical event or mastermind they would encounter.

This thread is about did they or didn't they. I defer to Patrick Macnee who has stated, "Of course they did it...but then they got on with it!" The show was as it should have been; no sex on screen as, yes, it would have deluded the magic of the series. It was far more intriguing and all the more brilliant for titillating our imagination.

It's stimulating to have these sorts of debates and I respect everyones personal views. I appreciate the opportunity to interact with you all! It's great to find so many devoted and passionate fans of such a remarkable show!

Sue