Overrated classic episodes

[Dandy Forsdyke]

True, but when silliness dominates rather than surrealism the show has lost its plot. That's why I like the episodes where there is a disturbing undercurrent as well as the humour.

I think that sillyness was almost sometimes de rigueur in the latter part of the 60's. Smashing Time is one of my all time favourite films in the "swinging sixties" genre, but it goes mental at the end.

I've only seen Smashing Time once but remember really enjoying it, the way it went around swinging London. I loved the ending up on the Post Office tower as it was when the revolving restaurant starts getting faster and faster.

Having checked some clips, I noticed that the late Lynn Redgrave's character wears the same pink fur coat as that Linda Thorson wore for some of the early publicity shots and in a fight scene in Have Gun Will Haggle.

I think you're right there. Another reason to love this wonderful movie, which influenced both Absolutely Fabulous and Austin Powers, baby! Hooray for Brenda and Yvonne!

[Mona]

I always find it odd when I hear such outcry against various Avenger episodes from a Fan Forum!

But, I'm a Steedophile, first and foremost, and can find anything of interest (usually--aside from Second Sight) in any episode, to watch. I also think that although each episode is not utterly superb there are ALWAYS positive things to find in any episode, or even cerebral things to think about.

In Man-Eater of Surrey Green, which I find endlessly enjoyable, we have a goofy episode, yes, but The Avengers did many Sci-Fi type stories about inventions which did not exist (and still to this day do not), and so forth which we accept without travail, and even applaud. The Cybernaut Trio is usually a general favorite among fans. And, remember, "Man-Eater" took place before man had set one single foot on the moon, so we shouldn't judge too harshly.

As for Emma stating vegetation was found on the moon, I enjoy that, as I don't see her as that perfect a woman, and this is another humanizing moment for her. Emma is not considered to be a "scientist" per se, just a smart rich gal who has used her time to actualize her potential. She has book smarts (as does Steed, who speaks more languages than she does, fore example), yet Steed by far has more street smarts. So, they work great as a pair, including, of course, their feelings for each other.

There are some good lines in this episode, Steed is lean and handsome, we finally get to see that it actually DOES rain in England, and we see a marvelous feature of Steed's disturbed reaction to the Venus Fly trap eating an insect. What a surprising and rare reaction for Steed? What brought it on? What memory did it bring forth from his psyche? Lovely to daydream about!

The biggest problem with Man-Eater, in my opinion is the odd controversy which comes up regarding the fight scene. If folks recall, at the very beginning of the show we are shown a MANNEQUIN in the hallway of the bad guy (whose name I forget). A MANNEQUIN--who puts a mannequin in the hallway of their mansion. This is obviously foreshadowing--TV doesn't waste time or camera shots, ever, like that.

So, during the fight scene at the end, there is the inevitable debate as to whether it is Emma or the Mannequin that Steed is using to draw out the plant. My view is obviously it's the mannequin, which is why we saw the mannequin in the first shot, and Steed put Emma's jacket on it. Others somehow believe Steed would attempt to actually sacrifice Emma. The problem is that for some reason the editing of this fight scene was awful, simply rough and unclear, which is unusual for the otherwise general high quality production of the Steed/Emma series.

Anyway, I apologize for the long post and this somewhat slightly tangential thread topic, but has this debate already been discussed at the Forum? If so, what was the general consensus--mannequin or Emma?

Mona

[Allard]

No, thank you for your lengthy post.

But just to clarify, I am not asking to talk down episodes, what I was intending to discuss was the fact that often the episodes picked for trailers or as "best off's" are seldom those praised by fans.

And Man-Eater of Surrey Green is a good episode, which I would sooner call it underrated then overrated.

[Mona]

Thanks, Allard! Sorry if I mistook your thread idea! Thanks for the clarification. I do entirely agree that "Man-Eater" is under-rated.

Mona

[Timeless A-Peel]

Anyway, I apologize for the long post and this somewhat slightly tangential thread topic, but has this debate already been discussed at the Forum? If so, what was the general consensus--mannequin or Emma?

Yes, there's a previous discussion. I actually screen-capped the scene and looked at it in this thread:

http://avengersfanforum.s2.bizhat.com/v ... rsfanforum

I have to say, every time I see it it seems to me that Steed's chosen to use Emma as bait, but that seems pretty harsh even though he can be a bit callous at times and use people to achieve the desired ends. But sacrificing Emma to the plant? Doesn't seem quite right. Looking at it in detail, it seems like it could be a mannequin. My biggest problem with the way it's put together is that there isn't a long enough period when Steed's offscreen for him to manhandle Emma out of her coat, put it on the mannequin, position the mannequin in the same position as the unconscious Emma, and then drag her off out of harm's way. The timing just isn't feasible. If they'd had Steed go AWOL for just a little while longer, it might have made more sense to the viewer.

[Mona]

Thank you, Timeless, for the thread connection. That was nice of you!

I was glad to see some others voting in on the Mannequin side as I do. As I said, the unusually rare terrible editing is what made this so confusing, but having Emma be "other there" as you mentioned does for me agree that Steed took off the jacket, put it on the mannequin--or else there was no reason at all for us ever to have seen a mannequin--and moved her out of the way.

Also, Steed had a pretty effective punch--think "Who Killed George, etc" in the Tara season. If he had intentions of sacrificing Emma all along I think he would have gotten pretty serious about going after her during the fight. Why dance around not wanting to hurt her, and then end up winning the fight simply by goofy mutual head knock, and then decide, "Ah, the heck with it, I'll risk killing her anyway", by dosing her with toxic plant killer? That doesn't make any more Steed sense than use seeing a non-used mannequin, to me!

Oddly, my very best Avengers fan friend believes it was Emma, not the mannequin, and as you can imagine, to keep ourselves civil with each other, this topic is now off limits between us! Otherwise I was going to radio power her car while she was driving!

Mona

[Dandy Forsdyke]

I thought it was the dummy too. Isn't Emma without her jacket at the end of the episode?

[Mona]

Yup, Dandy, and she's "over there" where we'd think Steed moved her.

Plus, I can't imagine folks really thinking Steed would so callously sacrifice Emma. I mean, wouldn't everyone think he'd pour the toxin stuff on HIMSELF instead of the unconscious woman he is responsible for and has serious feelings for? In all the episodes, we never saw or even heard in his past, of Steed being willing to allow a partner to die by his own hands. Does anyone really think that is part of Steed's character? Steed at times hid things from his partners, but he never was actually willing to kill one, or allow one to be killed in front of him.

Mona

[kim]

Yup, Dandy, and she's "over there" where we'd think Steed moved her.

Plus, I can't imagine folks really thinking Steed would so callously sacrifice Emma. I mean, wouldn't everyone think he'd pour the toxin stuff on HIMSELF instead of the unconscious woman he is responsible for and has serious feelings for? In all the episodes, we never saw or even heard in his past, of Steed being willing to allow a partner to die by his own hands. Does anyone really think that is part of Steed's character? Steed at times hid things from his partners, but he never was actually willing to kill one, or allow one to be killed in front of him.

Mona

Ahh...but doesn't Steed tell Gambit that they are all expendable? While I agree that Steed would do everything in his power to prevent the death of a colleague if he could, he would also choose saving the world over saving a friend. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, so to speak.

[Timeless A-Peel]

Yup, Dandy, and she's "over there" where we'd think Steed moved her.

Plus, I can't imagine folks really thinking Steed would so callously sacrifice Emma. I mean, wouldn't everyone think he'd pour the toxin stuff on HIMSELF instead of the unconscious woman he is responsible for and has serious feelings for? In all the episodes, we never saw or even heard in his past, of Steed being willing to allow a partner to die by his own hands. Does anyone really think that is part of Steed's character? Steed at times hid things from his partners, but he never was actually willing to kill one, or allow one to be killed in front of him.

Mona

Ahh...but doesn't Steed tell Gambit that they are all expendable? While I agree that Steed would do everything in his power to prevent the death of a colleague if he could, he would also choose saving the world over saving a friend. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, so to speak.

Exactly. If at all possible, Steed would try to save one of his colleagues, or at the very least trade places with them, but if it came down to a choice between the security of the country (or world) and the life of a partner, he'd sacrifice the partner. Might not be happy about it, but at the end of the day he's got a job to do. So would he sacrifice Emma? Yes, I think so, if he couldn't see another way out. Was there no other way out? Well, I always feel as though Steed's sort of flying by the seat of his pants in that scene. He doesn't have a lot of time. He and Emma never really got far enough into their plan to figure out how exactly they were going to administer the herbicide. He tries not to hurt Emma in the fight, true, but that doesn't mean anything--he's dealing with problems one at a time, and when Emma falls under the plant's control, his first concern is to stop her from sabotaging him. Does he try not to hurt her? Yes, of course--it's still Emma after all. But once she's out, and he has time to assess the situation. Emma's out, and when she wakes out she's going to be under the plant's control. It's entirely possible he could make a snap decision and decide it was worth the risk. He could try to take her place, but if he fails and gets eaten, then who's going to stop the plant? Emma's under its influence. With not much in the way of time, he could easily have made a snap decision to risk Emma's life and use her as plant bait. I always figured when I watched it that Emma had ended up in a new spot because the plant had dragged her there, and was missing her jacket because the plant ate it. Looking at it again, it seems as though the audience was meant to think Steed was sacrificing Emma, and then when we see her lying elsewhere, it's meant to be a "Gotcha!" moment. In that case they didn't convey it very well--instead of being suspenseful and surprising, I just found it confusing.