Angels of Death

[Timeless A-Peel]

I just...don't see it. I mean, I see it, but I see a deeper attraction between her and Steed. Maybe it all comes back to my own issues with Gambit and what I perceive as his smarminess (not certain that's a word, but I'm using it!). Steed, while still a ladies' man beyond a shadow of a doubt, has a bit more smoothness and gentility when it comes to women - he cycles through girlfriends, but he seems to treat them all decently (I maintain he's constantly searching for a Mrs. Peel, but that's another story). Maybe Purdey perceives him as a challenge, whereas Gambit would be really easy. But considering it, I honestly don't think she's properly in love with either of them.

Whatever - I find it interesting to talk about, even if not much is going to change in perspective.

Personally, I think Purdey was interested in both Steed and Gambit. Maybe after Larry she was no longer a one-man woman. I don't think S&G would've minded sharing her life with another man. Steed was always pretty open-minded. Probably they'd alternate days/weeks/months?

Hehe. I think Gambit would've freaked.

I don't see Purdey/Steed, either. It's too bland, and there's not the level of depth to it. I think in another year or two, Purdey's crush would have faded. And I don't think Steed's particularly interested in a romance with Purdey. By this point in his career, I think he wants friends he can trust and rely on more than anything else.

I actually think she sees a relationship with Gambit as more of a challenge, because he doesn't want a fling, and a serious relationship scares her after what happened with Larry. Steed, on the other hand, I think she sees as safe ground, because anything that happens won't be lasting, and she won't have to overthink/commit to it much. With Gambit, she'd have to let her defences down, and I think that terrifies her.

I've always thought Gambit's treatment of women was pretty darn good, too. He's very good at respecting boundaries, and even if the relationships aren't going to last, he's very invested in both parties enjoying themselves, rather than just him. His dynamic with Penny Redfern, for example, is based on a lot of mutual respect and good-natured exchanges. Meanwhile, in season 2 of the original series, Steed was stuffing business cards down the front of Venus' dress. Steed evolved, thankfully, but the seasons 1-3 version of him I find really, really difficult to like in a lot of ways. Gambit treated his dates and his partners much better than Steed did in that era.

[Timeless A-Peel]

The Steed of Seasons 1-2, and to some extent 3, was quite different... now he was easy!

Wasn't Gambit a "free love" kind of guy? They even had a section of The Avengers Dossier on "Gambit's Conquests"! And he teased Purdey anbout his "under... cover" work. Perhaps he's a hypocrite?

I relate to Cathy every time she drills Steed in the shins. I suspect if I'd had to cope with him, I'd have done the same.

Gambit did say all the nice girls love a sailor, so I think he's had his share of fun. I think he'd be quite happy to have just Purdey, though.

[Lhbizness]

Well, I wasn't trying to compare Gambit with Season 2 Steed at all, and I agree that Steed liked women very much - though frankly, despite one or two instances (as in The Decapod), he primarily seems to relate to women on a pretty even keel - they like him, he likes them. His relationship to Cathy tends to be him trying to get a rise out of her, and succeeding, less actually trying to demean her in any sense (particularly when you get to Season 3). He gives her a great deal of credit, and obviously respects her talents. In Warlock when he invites her up and she nearly runs over his foot, he smiles about it: that era Steed obviously likes that Cathy challenges his preconceptions and is willing to fight with him. They're actually complex characters with a complex relationship, and far too often it's downgraded to "he's a sexist, she's masculine."

Steed's dynamic with other women that he openly dates or shows interest in (as in Judy in Mandrake) is flirtatious and friendly. He sees a lot of women - that does not mean that he disrespects them or treats them badly. And for a man who's supposed to be such a lady-killer, he doesn't seem to actually date or see that many women in the course of the show. He seems to spend most of his time with Cathy.

But Purdey didn't know Season 2 Steed. I was comparing TNA Steed (a much more mature man) with Gambit - and Gambit has an annoying habit of making bad sexual jokes with almost every women he meets, especially with Purdey. Steed is much quieter, more refined, and has gentler way about him. Gambit strikes me as that 70s era guy who wears an open shirt and talks about "free love" as a way of getting to bed as many women as possible.

Do I think that a Purdey/Steed relationship would have lasted? Not in the least. I don't think he was in love with her, and I don't really think that she was IN love with him. But I don't see Gambit as having more emotional depth than him - rather the opposite in fact.

[Frankymole]

I've always thought Gambit's treatment of women was pretty darn good, too. He's very good at respecting boundaries, and even if the relationships aren't going to last, he's very invested in both parties enjoying themselves, rather than just him. His dynamic with Penny Redfern, for example, is based on a lot of mutual respect and good-natured exchanges. Meanwhile, in season 2 of the original series, Steed was stuffing business cards down the front of Venus' dress. Steed evolved, thankfully, but the seasons 1-3 version of him I find really, really difficult to like in a lot of ways.

Yep! Though he is very funny. But I am so glad he grew up - and I love looking for ways in which Cathy (and to some extent Venus, in a couple of her episodes) tried to make him do so. They were making him the kind of man that Emma Peel would look at twice. She would've been disgusted by Season 2 Steed.

[Timeless A-Peel]

I've always thought Gambit's treatment of women was pretty darn good, too. He's very good at respecting boundaries, and even if the relationships aren't going to last, he's very invested in both parties enjoying themselves, rather than just him. His dynamic with Penny Redfern, for example, is based on a lot of mutual respect and good-natured exchanges. Meanwhile, in season 2 of the original series, Steed was stuffing business cards down the front of Venus' dress. Steed evolved, thankfully, but the seasons 1-3 version of him I find really, really difficult to like in a lot of ways.

Yep! Though he is very funny. But I am so glad he grew up - and I love looking for ways in which Cathy (and to some extent Venus, in a couple of her episodes) tried to make him do so. They were making him the kind of man that Emma Peel would look at twice. She would've been disgusted by Season 2 Steed.

I like to think Drs. Keel and King had an impact as well. Collectively, all of them--Cathy and Venus included--smoothed him out in a lot of ways, especially in terms of how to treat a partner.

[Frankymole]

Those war years must've been grim for his comrades on those flights over to occupied Europe... if the Steed we see at the start is anything to go by. There were a lot of rough edges to knock off.

So the show is very much about "The Avengers", plural, because they all helped him to care. By the end he possibly cared too much - at least for his superiors' comfort. I'm surprised the enemy didn't take advantage of that more often (Oatres does in "Hostage", of course)... especially as the guy never locked his door and any old nefarious person could wander unhindered into Steed's Stud!

[Lhbizness]

I'm bowled over by how little people seem to like Steed over the course of the show, given that he's the only character who makes it through. He seems to me an incredibly positive character that was neither flawless nor overwhelmingly flawed. I quite like Cathy era Steed. I think he did care, all the time - about his colleagues, his friends, his country, the people he was trying to protect. That's one of the things that angers him: he's in a business where he's not supposed to be involved with anything emotionally, and he does care about others. He's touched when Cathy is concerned about him (seems even surprised that anyone would care if he lives or dies) and there are moments when he shows a very deep concern for her - but it's concealed by sarcasm and an off-hand manner.

[Timeless A-Peel]

Well, I wasn't trying to compare Gambit with Season 2 Steed at all, and I agree that Steed liked women very much - though frankly, despite one or two instances (as in The Decapod), he primarily seems to relate to women on a pretty even keel - they like him, he likes them. His relationship to Cathy tends to be him trying to get a rise out of her, and succeeding, less actually trying to demean her in any sense (particularly when you get to Season 3). He gives her a great deal of credit, and obviously respects her talents. In Warlock when he invites her up and she nearly runs over his foot, he smiles about it: that era Steed obviously likes that Cathy challenges his preconceptions and is willing to fight with him. They're actually complex characters with a complex relationship, and far too often it's downgraded to "he's a sexist, she's masculine."

Steed's dynamic with other women that he openly dates or shows interest in (as in Judy in Mandrake) is flirtatious and friendly. He sees a lot of women - that does not mean that he disrespects them or treats them badly. And for a man who's supposed to be such a lady-killer, he doesn't seem to actually date or see that many women in the course of the show. He seems to spend most of his time with Cathy.

But Purdey didn't know Season 2 Steed. I was comparing TNA Steed (a much more mature man) with Gambit - and Gambit has an annoying habit of making bad sexual jokes with almost every women he meets, especially with Purdey. Steed is much quieter, more refined, and has gentler way about him. Gambit strikes me as that 70s era guy who wears an open shirt and talks about "free love" as a way of getting to bed as many women as possible.

Do I think that a Purdey/Steed relationship would have lasted? Not in the least. I don't think he was in love with her, and I don't really think that she was IN love with him. But I don't see Gambit as having more emotional depth than him - rather the opposite in fact.

I wouldn't say Steed's necessarily sexist in the early years, but to an extent he doesn't know how to treat people, and not just women. Yes, he respects Cathy's talents, but he also manipulates her and gets her involved in assignments without her consent, just the way he does with Dr. Keel and Venus. His intentions are good, and I think he likes and cares about all of those early partners, and maybe he regrets it on occasion, but he keeps doing it, and then seems bemused when they get fed up and quit working with him. We only see Cathy's exit onscreen, but I suspect that King/Keel/Venus quit associating with him for much the same reasons as she does. My point is that what you see in Gambit, I see in Steed in season 2. Gambit was a good and loyal friend to his partners, and treated his dates well. I guess I'm having trouble seeing how Steed can act the ways he did in season 2 and be seen as the ideal man, and Gambit can treat people far better and still come out the worse for it.

And there's lots of emotional depth to Gambit if you pay attention. Brian Clemens and Gareth gave him lots of subtle little lines that are great little gems and tell you a lot about the kind of man he is. Oh, and he never wore an open shirt. He had some nice suits from Saville Row, though.

[Lhbizness]

I wouldn't say Steed's necessarily sexist in the early years, but to an extent he doesn't know how to treat people, and not just women. Yes, he respects Cathy's talents, but he also manipulates her and gets her involved in assignments without her consent, just the way he does with Dr. Keel and Venus. His intentions are good, and I think he likes and cares about all of those early partners, and maybe he regrets it on occasion, but he keeps doing it, and then seems bemused when they get fed up and quit working with him. We only see Cathy's exit onscreen, but I suspect that King/Keel/Venus quit associating with him for much the same reasons as she does. My point is that what you see in Gambit, I see in Steed in season 2. Gambit was a good and loyal friend to his partners, and treated his dates well. I guess I'm having trouble seeing how Steed can act the ways he did in season 2 and be seen as the ideal man, and Gambit can treat people far better and still come out the worse for it.

And there's lots of emotional depth to Gambit if you pay attention. Brian Clemens and Gareth gave him lots of subtle little lines that are great little gems and tell you a lot about the kind of man he is. Oh, and he never wore an open shirt. He had some nice suits from Saville Row, though.

Never said Steed was ideal - but he is real and given that he does get greater character development over the years, it's easy to see the undercurrents in his personality even in the early years, as I've touched on above. And maybe that's what Gambit needed for me to actually care about him or see him as more than a pretty smarmy character - a longer run and more of a chance to develop a background. Maybe I don't see how he was given any kind of depth, or I'm just really turned off by his whole character in general. But yeah, I see Steed even in Season 2 as a more dynamic, likable, and charming man. In some ways even more so because he is flawed and does things that both his partners and the audience don't like - he has room to move, and chances to show his growth.

I don't see Gambit's emotional depth at all. That's OK. I don't have to. I'm likewise having trouble how you can see such emotional depth in Gambit and so little in Steed over the course of two seasons.

[Frankymole]

Cathy tended to look disapprovingly at the detritus of Steed's many house parties though. Especially where there were items of female apparel about the place. Gambit had a bit more class - or at least hid the aftermath better