the movie.

[Andrew Pixley]

Hi Frank

Hope all is well.

I can only speak from personal experience; when The Avengers was rerun on Channel 4 in the early 1980s it was the first time I'd seen it (bar an episode or two of The New Avengers back in 1977).

I'd seen the odd episode of "The Avengers" during Yorkshire's late-night runs of 1975/6, but I really became a big fan when "The Eagle's Nest" went out on Yorkshire and then caught up with the parent series properly when "From Venus with Love" aired in the middle of the night on Channel 4 in November 1982.

And what made me seek out fanzines/clubs for both The Avengers and The Prisoner during the 1980s (and Blakes 7 and Sherlock Holmes and...) was the fact we had no video recorder nor any means of seeing it again - unless a TV company was merciful enough to show reruns, but in those days it was a very rare thing for anyone to show repeats of things that were more than a year or two old, until Channel 4 started in 1982. There was no guarantee that Channel 4 would show the same series twice anyway. It was another 9 years before they showed The Prisoner again, and satellite and cable stations (which we couldn't afford) started showing things like The Avengers so they were unavailable to me.

Absolutely! In those days, half the battle was getting to see the shows ... or find out about them, or get to meet like-minded people. And even when Channel 4 screened "The Avengers", we were soon aware that at least the first 16 episodes had substantial cuts made to them. So there was a mystique even about those ... let alone the videotaped shows! That was one of thing that made Dave's book and a lot of the early zines so very, very important to me!

So I really wanted to know more about these programmes. Episode guides were thin on the ground or non-existent.

There was Gary Gerani's amazing "Fantastic Television" (plus the "Starlog" guide books), "PrimeTime" ... and, erm, that was about it ...

The Prisoner society drew me into my first fan convention, so I could see episodes on video or even in the cinema - and an unexpected bonus was that I found the "buzz" of seeing the episodes became additionally a "buzz" of talking about the show with like-minded fans. Some great friendships resulted (one my best friend), some of which have gone on nearly 30 years from since my teens and now into my middle-age. In fact they've outlasted the fan clubs that spawned them!

Attending my first PortmeiriCon in 1983 was amazing. To be able to discuss the show and see the odd episode I'd not managed to catch before ("Hammer into Anvil" as I recall - still a favourite) was a terrific experience.

And meeting people like that does last a lifetime. Hopefully. I met various people - including Anthony McKay - on Sunday 11 January 1981, and they're still part of my life today because of our affection for these shows - laughing, joking, enthusing, swapping notes and ideas some 33 years later and being as wonderful and vivid in my life as ever.

I don't think I'd have joined clubs or bought 'zines now, in the age when you can read everything about a series at the click of a mouse (well, almost everything - the info from Andrew Pixley's detailed works on the production of shows are unlikely to be found on any web page). But you can get episode guides, cast lists, interviews, trivia - and for fan interaction you can be instantly up-to-date and make friends on the numerous Facebook pages and fora.

But the accessibility to information - and the shows themselves - is incredible. In fact, it's as fantastic as so many elements of "The Avengers" were when I first watched them! And to be able to communicate, quickly, clearly, directly on forums like this is quite, quite amazing. Even just reading all the enthusiasms of others gives me a nice happy feeling, knowing that people around the world of all ages, cultures, whatever are engaging with and enthused by these amazing and imaginative programmes.

And of course almost every popular show has a plethora of DVD releases or Netflix streams, etc. So you can scratch the viewing itch as well. The incentive that drove me to be a zine-buying, club-joining fan is no longer there. These days when I find a show I like I just buy the DVDs - though I do buy old-fanzine reprints as well

... and at the moment, the DVD is generally the most pure form of appreciation. Sure, there's websites and zines and forums ... but unless you still care about and enjoy the core product, the show itself, then you do at times query why you should be devoting so much time into a hobby.

I've loved getting an old show I've not seen for years and enjoying it a-fresh on DVD. Like meeting up with an old friend, and discovering as you've grown older that they have many more qualities that you now admire and value even more.

All the best

Andrew

[Andrew Pixley]

One thing I do miss from the age of the hard-copy zine is the more considered opinion piece. Yes, we can buy books on the production of shows - a very good one on The Avengers has just been published, and companies like Network have tremendous "viewing notes" tomes by Andrew which are books in themselves. The research is staggering. They even cover the contemporary press and public reaction to shows, as well as internal production memos and script changes.

I am looking forward immensely to Mike's book. I suspect that he's again managed to push back the boundaries of research and set new standards, and I can't wait to wallow in all that new information and admire even more the people who made the series!

What the internet rarely has is a set of articles, or essays examining series critically. Rodney Marshall has addressed this for The Avengers with the Bright Horizons volume and others planned in the Avengers on Film series. Dave Rogers's On Target/Stay Tuned was massively useful in this regard. He also included fun trivia and news (both of which the internet fan groups do well) but the only place online to find articles of critical analysis on narrow aspects of certain episodes of certain shows is in an enthusiast's blog - if you can find one! They're rare beasts because they're hard to do, and are even harder to find especially if someone has only written one or two entries on your favourite show.

Opinion pieces are tricky ... and I've always found them difficult to write. Which is probably why I don't. I also don't think I have enough confidence in my own opinions and theories to merit an article, let alone a book. Why should my perspective on something be right? Very happy to read other people's, but I'd far rather immerse myself in learning via research of archival sources and trying to understand the decisions and incidents which shaped these terrific shows.

That's why I still buy books like Bright Horizons and zine reprints like Jaz's Morning After. You don't really get that stuff from the internet, not in that amount.

The collections of "The Morning After" are a fine example. That'd never appear in such a form online. It's also a beautiful slice of what it was like to follow these shows during that era in terms of news, product, anticiption, technology, etc.

There are some tremendous Dr Who "fanzines" (made to a better standard than professional newsstand magazines - they're essentially very glossy paperback books) like "Vworp! Vworp!" and "Nothing at the End of the Lane", which I buy, but they come out at the rate of one tremendously in-depth researched volume every 4-7 years. They're not what we called fanzines back in the day. I do buy them though as they have a similar depth of information as the detailed books by Andrew.

"Nothing at the End of the Lane" and "Vworp! Vworp!" are both fine examples of innovative, beautifully designed fanzines where the editors are trying to do something fresh and new. One of the problems with regular publication of either zines or magazine is a continual flow of new material. Doesn't always happen on demand like that. But when you do find brilliant zines, you certainly savour them and enjoy them all the more ....

I do miss Time Screen though! Picking up the latest copy at Portmeiricon made it feel like a proper holiday.

"TimeScreen" was a really joyous time. It was the right moment ... moving from non-availability through discovery to availability on tape of many of these shows. And it was such a delight to work with so many wonderful, vivid, fun, exciting people whose ideas and enthusiasm just continually fizzed and kept you going.

All the best

Andrew

[Lhbizness]

What the internet rarely has is a set of articles, or essays examining series critically. Rodney Marshall has addressed this for The Avengers with the Bright Horizons volume and others planned in the Avengers on Film series. Dave Rogers's On Target/Stay Tuned was massively useful in this regard. He also included fun trivia and news (both of which the internet fan groups do well) but the only place online to find articles of critical analysis on narrow aspects of certain episodes of certain shows is in an enthusiast's blog - if you can find one! They're rare beasts because they're hard to do, and are even harder to find especially if someone has only written one or two entries on your favourite show.

Opinion pieces are tricky ... and I've always found them difficult to write. Which is probably why I don't. I also don't think I have enough confidence in my own opinions and theories to merit an article, let alone a book. Why should my perspective on something be right? Very happy to read other people's, but I'd far rather immerse myself in learning via research of archival sources and trying to understand the decisions and incidents which shaped these terrific shows.

It's funny, because I'm the exact opposite. I love reading and writing opinion pieces based on analysis - it's fascinating to see the differing opinions produced in well-founded, well-analyzed articles. Those are indeed hard to come by, but for me analysis is fun to do. Quite different from empirical research, of course, but it has the same kind of value. I think the point is not so much about being "right" about an episode or a series; it's rather founding opinion not just upon whether you like or don't like something, but on what the product means, culturally, socially, or cinematically. There's such a breadth of opinion based solidly in cinematic evidence that it's difficult to exhaust those aspects of a show - and plenty of theories to use and develop. Not all scholarship is the same, but it is the basis of an entire discipline within media studies. I love that there's room for both kinds of work, and that the internet allows those ideas to be disseminated so quickly and easily.

[Andrew Pixley]

Hi Lauren

It's funny, because I'm the exact opposite. I love reading and writing opinion pieces based on analysis - it's fascinating to see the differing opinions produced in well-founded, well-analyzed articles. Those are indeed hard to come by, but for me analysis is fun to do. Quite different from empirical research, of course, but it has the same kind of value. I think the point is not so much about being "right" about an episode or a series; it's rather founding opinion not just upon whether you like or don't like something, but on what the product means, culturally, socially, or cinematically. There's such a breadth of opinion based solidly in cinematic evidence that it's difficult to exhaust those aspects of a show - and plenty of theories to use and develop. Not all scholarship is the same, but it is the basis of an entire discipline within media studies. I love that there's room for both kinds of work, and that the internet allows those ideas to be disseminated so quickly and easily.

And that's the lovely thing about the limitless space on the internet ... that the wider variety of scope for style is more practical. I enjoy dipping in and out of other people's perspective and analysis to maybe spot something that I've missed and appreciate it in a different way. But my semi-autistic mind doesn't work in that way; I only tend to see a programme the sum total of the technical elements that go into it ... and, in a rather facile manner, simply as entertainment rather than a social comment. And that's why I've enjoyed some of the more academic books that I've read of late, and particularly events like last year's amazing "Spaces of Television" conference at the University of Reading which was a massively enjoyable and engaging experience. I got a real kick out of it ... but I'd be totally hopeless at delivering anything like that myself. Not smart enough. I'd rather just be buried under a pile of scripts and shooting schedules.

Vive la difference!

All the best

Andrew

[Frankymole]

Hi again Andrew! Things are pretty swell here. Hope they are with you too

Did people really want to read about "Virtual Murder" even although I really wanted to write about it? I'm not so sure now.

I do!!! I didn't get to see enough when it was on. It was slightly hampered by being on videotape when SF/telefantasy was thought of as a film medium but still it's always nice to see TV people experimenting with new ideas.

To read these things though one has to go hunting through Ebay or find a dodgy scan. Unless someone has a Virtual Murder blog I don't know about...!

Absolutely! In those days, half the battle was getting to see the shows ... or find out about them, or get to meet like-minded people. And even when Channel 4 screened "The Avengers", we were soon aware that at least the first 16 episodes had substantial cuts made to them. So there was a mystique even about those ... let alone the videotaped shows! That was one of thing that made Dave's book and a lot of the early zines so very, very important to me!

Dave's coverage of the Keel/Cathy era intrigued me, and we could never envisage then actually being able to see these shows. The news emerged that the episodes, many thought lost forever, existed as one set of negatives and that these were in danger - and indeed one of the Cathy episodes might be gone, irrecoverably, forever. Scarier than the Dr Who Winter Special 1981 that revealed the erasures from the BBC archive! Great news that Patrick Macnee himself made pleas for them to be rescued, even though they had zero commercial value. Who could possibly have envisaged where we are now?

I've loved getting an old show I've not seen for years and enjoying it a-fresh on DVD. Like meeting up with an old friend, and discovering as you've grown older that they have many more qualities that you now admire and value even more.

That's very true - and another bonus is watching shows I never even knew existed when they were on, as they were shown after my bedtime; seeing performances from favourite actors in wildly diverse roles, and enjoying as an adult shows which haven't been shown on TV since my parents were young. Incredible. Some of them have even becomes favourites of mine, easily at the top of my "rewatch" pile and making me re-evaluate what I think of as quality programme-making. With any luck they'll continue to be available to future generations as well. I just wish they'd bring out all the 1960s/70s made-for-TV plays as they're usually top class! Here's hoping the BBC "Project Barcelona"/BBC store kicks something off on that front. DVD companies' commercialism only stretches so far.

[jaz]

Andrew Pixley wrote in a message to Frankymole:

Absolutely! In those days, half the battle was getting to see the shows ... or find out about them, or get to meet like-minded people. And even when Channel 4 screened "The Avengers", we were soon aware that at least the first 16 episodes had substantial cuts made to them. So there was a mystique even about those ... let alone the videotaped shows! That was one of thing that made Dave's book and a lot of the early zines so very, very important to me!

You are so right Andrew and this really got me thinking about the way I actually saw the ITC programmes I love. I obviously remember watching shows like Return of The Saint, The New Avengers and The Professionals when they were first broadcast in the late 70s and also remember seeing Thunderbirds and the hour long Danger Man episodes in the summer holidays of 1981(?). I have much older siblings (my oldest sister is 11 years old than me) and was allowed to watch the ITC series during their mid 70s reruns when I would have been about 8 or 9. We had ITC and Countdown annuals and toys around the house and my mum always told me as a very little boy I loved Captain Scarlet and talked about the episode where Captain Scarlet killed Captain Blue (Special Assignment) all the time but didn't really remember them that well until ITV started showing series like The Champions, Randall and Hopkirk, Captain Scarlet, etc in the early, mid 80s.

I saw the ITV Best of British showing of The Persuaders! episode Greensleeves in 1982 and that was really the catalyst for me getting into the series so heavily. I suppose looking back I loved Roger Moore as James Bond and thought he was just brilliant in The Persuaders! (I'd not seen The Saint at that point!) and it was then that I wanted to know more about the programme and his career. We'd got a video recorder that year and I don't know how but I hooked up with a guy called Dave Leggett up north who traded videos and ended up spending a small fortune buying VHS copies of The Persuaders! that he had traded with someone in Australia. I had no idea these were cut by up to 8 minutes as I couldn't find an episode guide anywhere. In those days we lived in deepest, darkest Dorset and none of my friends were into these shows.

On a trip to Bristol in 1985 I discovered a shop called Forever People on Park Street and they sold TimeScreen and SIG and I picked up a couple of issues and that was just a joy to discover that there were other people out there that liked these shows too. I was never really a fan of the sci-fi shows like Star Trek, Doctor Who (although I do remember watching the Pertwee stories when they were first broadcast) so it was nice to see magazines with the sort of programmes I enjoyed.

I suppose I was lucky in the fact that we grew up in a pub in the late 60s through to mid 70s and because my mum and dad were always busy my elder sister tended to look after me which meant I watched a lot of telly at that time!

I'm thankful to companies like Network, Umbrella, Madman, etc who have brought us so many fabulous dvds that we can now just enjoy at our own pace and time. How spoilt/lucky we are now compared to those days in the early - mid 80s.

[mousemeat]

Hi again Andrew! Things are pretty swell here. Hope they are with you too

Did people really want to read about "Virtual Murder" even although I really wanted to write about it? I'm not so sure now.

I do!!! I didn't get to see enough when it was on. It was slightly hampered by being on videotape when SF/telefantasy was thought of as a film medium but still it's always nice to see TV people experimenting with new ideas.

To read these things though one has to go hunting through Ebay or find a dodgy scan. Unless someone has a Virtual Murder blog I don't know about...!

Absolutely! In those days, half the battle was getting to see the shows ... or find out about them, or get to meet like-minded people. And even when Channel 4 screened "The Avengers", we were soon aware that at least the first 16 episodes had substantial cuts made to them. So there was a mystique even about those ... let alone the videotaped shows! That was one of thing that made Dave's book and a lot of the early zines so very, very important to me!

Dave's coverage of the Keel/Cathy era intrigued me, and we could never envisage then actually being able to see these shows. The news emerged that the episodes, many thought lost forever, existed as one set of negatives and that these were in danger - and indeed one of the Cathy episodes might be gone, irrecoverably, forever. Scarier than the Dr Who Winter Special 1981 that revealed the erasures from the BBC archive! Great news that Patrick Macnee himself made pleas for them to be rescued, even though they had zero commercial value. Who could possibly have envisaged where we are now?

I've loved getting an old show I've not seen for years and enjoying it a-fresh on DVD. Like meeting up with an old friend, and discovering as you've grown older that they have many more qualities that you now admire and value even more.

That's very true - and another bonus is watching shows I never even knew existed when they were on, as they were shown after my bedtime; seeing performances from favourite actors in wildly diverse roles, and enjoying as an adult shows which haven't been shown on TV since my parents were young. Incredible. Some of them have even becomes favourites of mine, easily at the top of my "rewatch" pile and making me re-evaluate what I think of as quality programme-making. With any luck they'll continue to be available to future generations as well. I just wish they'd bring out all the 1960s/70s made-for-TV plays as they're usually top class! Here's hoping the BBC "Project Barcelona"/BBC store kicks something off on that front. DVD companies' commercialism only stretches so far.

true...tis was a golden era in uk programming...as it was in the states..myself, i consider the earlier stuff....far better than most of these so called 'modern' series...the scripts are as solid, and the shock value is often too over the top..and the acting for the most part, is lacking..or wooden...in my opinion

[mariocki]

I must say I've found this thread fascinating even though we seem to have wandered somewhat from the original topic and would like to post something meaningful but I'm afraid I haven't got the time to be able to do so. What I will say is that the 80's were a very important time for fans of these shows as many of them were actually being shown on mainstream channels and generating some, if not huge, interest. Some people were happy to see the shows again while many, myself included, were seeing them for the first time. For some of those first-timers, again, that would include me, seeing the shows wasn't enough - we wanted to find out more about them. What were they doing now/where was that filmed/ where can I get pictures from? etc etc.

I can remember vividly walking down a street in Liverpool which I didn't walk down very often at the age of 16 and being stopped in my tracks when I saw Dave Rogers' first book in the shop window. A whole book? On The Avengers? What joy! There are actually people out there like me?! I went straight in to have a look, despite the bookshop being one for people (well, men actually) of a discerning taste and thumbed through a copy. Pictures? Quotes? An episode guide? This was manna from heaven but disappointment was to follow when I saw the price - more than I could afford on the day but an imminent birthday soon saw the the prized asset in my hands.

And so it started, an interest in all things ITC/Avengers/60's which continues to this day. Not long after that initial exposure to fandom I was a fully paid up member of Six Of One, had a subscription to On Target and was buying up as many magazines/fanzines from that same bookshop as I could afford. PrimeTime, Vulcan and many others whose names I've forgotten were devoured for snippets of information. If it had ITC or The Avengers on the cover I bought it. Names like Rogers, Fiddy, Goodman and Pixley became regulars. These days it's totally different - you just look it up online but there was something magical about getting those magazines and fanzines through the post and is the reason I was so happy to see the recent TMA reprints as it represented a time we'll probably never see again. Much of the information we want is now at our fingertips rather than having to wait for it to drop through the letterbox. All the shows are pretty much available to see whenever we want so that sense of anticipation and excitement maybe lost but the quality of the shows remains.

[frank]

Came across this article about the failure of the film. They timed in for the anniversary of its debut and tied it into the recent failure of the Fantastic Four movie

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendel ... -avengers/

[MikeR]

Frank

There are at least another couple of threads on here where I talk in depth about the film and having spoken with the editor Mick Audsley as research for Bowler Hats and Kinky Boots, he gave me an insider’s viewpoint on what went wrong.

1. Producer Jerry Weintraub chose the wrong director in Jeremiah Chechik, who although being a fan of the television series lacked the experience of handling such a large production.

2. Jeremiah Chechik did not stamp his authority on the film, allowing the three leads to interpret their characters exactly as they wanted.

3. The screenplay was constantly being rewritten as the production was being filmed.

4. Jeremiah Chechik created up to 9 different versions of each reel of the film, because he had no confidence in cutting a film together. Further to this material was edited out of the film making the narrative difficult to follow.

5. Early in production, Audsley pointed out to Weintraub and Chechik that there was no rapport between Steed and Mrs Peel and told them that the situation needed rectifying, but very little was done about this.

6. Warner Brothers were unhappy with the first cut and after two audience tests in the States resulted in a big thumbs down they wanted some reshooting and then even more editing to the finished film print.